Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 22009
Location: Southern California
Posted: 09/23/08 12:43
Being a skin/theme designer is a _very_ difficult job, and while I know that most people realize that (as the evidence of a lack of a large number of independent skin/theme designers points out), I don't think that people actually understand just how difficult skin/theme design is.
First off, it is _very_ time consuming. Putting together a fresh design from scratch takes a lot of time. On top of that, you have to decide which Jamroom features will be included in the design. Jamroom has hundreds of great features, and once you've figured out your select feature set, you will have to incorporate that into the skin.
After you've created the skin/theme, you aren't done - after sales are made, you have to support it. People are going to want to know how to do things with it, and you are probably going to need to update it with new Jamroom features to keep it "current." Add to that the fact that clientele are going to want to know how to customize it, and will be requesting new features to add in addition to Jamroom features.
Overall, _time_ is what it really comes down to. Why do people buy skins/themes for any CMS from a third party? Because they don't have the time to create their own design, whether that be that they know how, but just don't have the time, or that they don't have the time to learn how. Time is obviously finite for most people.
No number of new skins/themes will please everyone - people are always going to want more, which is natural, and drives innovation. I like what Nate said though about Jamroom not being a "business-in-a-box." If a person is hard set on making a business with Jamroom, the design alone isn't going to make that business successful. What really matters, and I know I've seen Brian mention this before, is that a _community_ is established. The business model for most people running jamroom sites is to create some sort of community or social platform to involve people - it's not to please the connoisseurs of web design. Design may help, but it is the _substance_ of a website that brings people back, not it's _appearance_.
Anyways, that was really long winded, and took up most of my lunch break. The point I'm trying to make is that Nate was not trying to be "nasty" with his comment above. People know that design is difficult, but it isn't until you actually _try your own hand_ at designing a skin/theme (much less a skin/theme that you plan on selling/marketing) that you really understand what skin/theme design really takes. Would I like to see new Jamroom skins and themes released? Absolutely! There's nothing that turns me off more from visiting a website than realizing that I saw someone else using the same design on another site. Don't get me wrong, I've used and taken advantage of default templates for various reasons before (i.e. http://kyle.jamroom.net), but I personally love seeing Jamroom sites that have their own fresh designs.
Probably should have wrapped that in <rant></rant>, but yeah....Anyways, just some ideas for exploring your motivation for finding/developing a design for your own Jamroom site.
when i mentioned new themes, i was not even trying to imply that i need a new design nor that i am a web designer. but just to mention a thought of many people out there that come to the this great site and read all the great features that the script has but it locks on the design part. including oinkba's design, jamroom has less than 10 themes or templates (what ever you want to call them). And this is when people go after this comes the exit site command and bye bye possible jamroom client!
i bought all the scripts jamroom offers with the exception to the cluster script. i went to oinkba and bought mediapro, i went and bought sefjam, i then went a bought a psd templete since i did not want my site to look like the next door guy, i went and bought vBulletin, bought a skin for it, i got this guy (forgot his name) to install his vB bridge, i also bought some other php script, then i went and got me developer to put together all these, plus some other modifications and add-ons. in the end i spent a few benjamins and i am happy.
But do you know something? it took me more than a year and few thousands of dollars playing around with other cms and with many developers and designers before i decided that my last try of having a great site was going to be using JR. upto this minute im trying hard to make something good happen for me, but if jamroom had it the way joomla or wordpress have it with great themes, that would of being 2 years trying with jamroom instead of just one.
take a minute and go to one of those freelancers places, you will find many request for a jamroom skin. there is a market out there to create a "rockethemes.com" like program for jamroom. who best to create new skins than those who know Jamroom best. Maybe, this is not a market that jamroom's dev wants to follow and that's pretty fine with me. after all, if i ever get tire of my site's "look" i go out there, find me a great new psd template and a good developer to put it together for me!
enough writing.
note; nate, unless i ask you please don't address none of my post on this forum.
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 37583
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 09/23/08 14:26
Wow - this really exploded overnight!
Just a update, that I'd like to save _some_ features to be "surprises" when the official Jamroom 4 feature list is announced, but I will tell you right now that Jamroom 4 will have a new default skin, that will be much nicer then the Cobalt3/Sage skin that is current in Jamroom 3 - both of which are fairly old, and were meant to be "starting" points for a custom skin (thus the sparse use of javascript and other features that can make a skin more complex).
I totally agree with Kacoblack and Mojowill though - Jamroom needs a fresh look - those that really know Jamroom know how powerful it can be, but if it doesn't "look as cool" as other CMS's, many users will gravitate towards the CMS that looks the nicest out of the box, and will look at functionality second. This is an adjustment for me, since I've really focused on features and performance, but am realizing that for a great many of users, it's the look that sells.
I'm excited though that with Jamroom 4, the design will be nice, and the back end functionality will be second to none
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 37583
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 09/23/08 14:38
kacoblack:
but if jamroom had it the way joomla or wordpress have it with great themes
This is actually based on a design decision, and comes down to the different way that Jamroom works versus many CMS's, and conversely leads to skins in Jamroom being a bit more complicated then what you find in something like Joomla, e107, drupal, etc. Most other CMS systems define "what you can do" in the core of the program, and the "skin" (or theme) just supplies the colors, layout, etc. - they do not "define" the features that are available on the site.
In Jamroom this works a bit differently, since the scripts (and template functions) are more like "tools" that are used INSIDE a skin/theme, and therefore the skin/theme actually becomes the foundation of the site, with the features and options defined within the skin. This allows a lot more flexibility at the design level, but also adds more complexity to the skin itself.
As a side note, I think if you look at how powerful the ranking system is, you can literally create an entire site based around output from the Ranking System, and in effect have something alot closer to what e107 or Joomla does - a 100% database driven design. It won't scale as well as a "full" Jamroom setup, but for 95% of sites it would probably work well. There is a second skin that will be released with Jamroom 4 (part of the power pack - it's still a surprise ) that will highlight this way of doing a skin, and I think many skin developers might find it easier to work with.
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 8792
Location: Ultrabubble
Posted: 09/23/08 15:21
djmerlyn:
I had a whole line here about why being a theme developer is a "dirty job" and nobody wants to do it...but I digress!
I have no problem with "doing the dirty" but the after effects are probably debilitating. Sort of like those "real life" posters in clinics that warn of the possible dangers of leaping in and getting mucky - you won't shake the morning after fallout for years to come.
bigguy:
I'm excited though that with Jamroom 4, the design will be nice, and the back end functionality will be second to none
I'd say that in Jamroom 3 the design is nice and the back end functionality is already second to none.
And also that the css styling is simple to change to obtain a unique look.
Obviously if you have tried it, changing the site structure or workings is far simpler than doing the same in Joomla or Wordpress. Creating a skin/theme is an entirely different proposition to doing the same in Joomla/Wordpress - chalk and cheese.
We all know that the Jamroom support structure is a world and a half apart from that of Joomla or Wordpress.
Consequently I think that the pricing is misleading - Jamroom should be several times more expensive, and everyone would be better off. At least we wouldn't have to read the witterings of people who think that because they have been able to buy a fully licensed, MOT'd, sustainable and roadworthy vehicle for $19, that they have a right to a full F1 support and development team For A Few Dollars More. To purchase the possible future developments in Joomla costs several hundred dollars a year, every year, and it is money well spent. My view on this is not universal, you will come across many people who demand that all support, installations and add-ons are free because Joomla is free. My view on these people is that they should be removed from the equation as quickly and politely as possible.
_________________ Kulshi Mezian!
"Stranger from another planet, welcome to our hole. Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock and roll"
Personally I give kudos to all of the developers on here. It is not easy coding all of this stuff and then retesting it with all of the releases to make sure your code did not break. Maybe Brian could create a customizable skin for the admins as well as the users so they could determine how the site looked. At least that way there would only be one theme/skin to support.
Ultimately though, if you do not like the layout, pay Brian and Zorag the money to build you a custom theme. It is pricey but all developers are!
Joined: 28 Jan 2007
Posts: 5866
Location: St. Louis, Missouri
Posted: 09/23/08 16:10
There are two types of users, those who use Jamroom to enhance their site, and those who use Jamroom to provide their site. I suppose they both spend the same kinda of money. If I were the developer of Jamroom, I'd try to get it all. That means, making it a point and click software for the non-developer, yet, flexible enough so that web-developers can still do their own thing.
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 22009
Location: Southern California
Posted: 09/23/08 18:40
It's important that people realize that, with every system, there are going to be trade-offs between complexity and usability. I think what Jamroom succeeds at is the fact that it has a massive feature set that makes it such a powerful platform. At the same time there is going to be some sort of tradeoff for ease of use. There's really no way to have a complex, powerful system that is so easy even anyone without HMTL experience can handle.
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 37583
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 09/24/08 18:15
One thing that is overlooked in this thread too is that Jamroom works really well "out of the box", and you can have a Jamroom site up and running, with your own logo and stuff, pretty darn quick.
Joined: 30 Mar 2005
Posts: 4086
Location: Southern California
Posted: 09/25/08 09:04
I think Jamroom 4 is going to be exciting!!
At least it will be for me.......
I've seen Jamroom leap forward with new features and functions with every version. It has developed into the fastest growing, most feature rich CMS on the market today. And I personally think it answers the needs of most everyone wanting a flexible CMS thats also rock solid and reliable but at the same time evolving to meet the ongoing needs of site owners and artists alike.
Jamroom can be as complicated as hard core designers need it to be or as simple to setup and use as a one man band wants it to be.
And I can't wait to see what Jamroom 4 will bring.........
after this comes the exit site command and bye bye possible jamroom client!
now that's funny.
