Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/03/09 09:20
I think it's about time. I've been reading through threads with people being frustrated using 3rd party add-ons created for Jamroom. Instructions sometimes are not clear or something just doesn't make any sense at all of why it should even work.
PHPBB handled this situation by creating a Mod validation team to approve a modules for clear instructions and full functionality. I'm seeing a lot of people in the future who are going to be really pissed and it's just not even necessary. This would avoid it.
I think Jamroom needs this to protect coders from unneeded grief and consumers from loosing money on junk.
Approved mods will be featured in the marketplace and even announced through the next jamroom newsletter to help the coder to start making sales.
Everyone wins.
Details:
A team could charge for every module you submit to be looked over and approved for public use. This would be a processing fee. One fee per mod unless you decide to submit an upgrade. Then maybe a half price processing fee. This doesn't need to be expensive but fair on the coder doing the approval and putting in the time. Human Mod validators
This would pay for Mod Teams time to go over your mod and the consumer would know they are safe making a purchase because the "Mod Team" approved it for clear install instructions (that should follow a standard) and showing the mod is up to date on security measures needed coded into the templates and mod files and are of course completely functional and not a hack job in the bad sense.
Just my thoughts on it all
_________________ Labels are obsolete as we know them...
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 22009
Location: Southern California
Posted: 09/03/09 13:22
All modules that are available in the Jamroom Marketplace are currently looked at by Brian before they are allowed to go into the marketplace. If there is a problem with it, then it isn't put up (and the owner is told why/what needs to be fixed). This is for both licensing and integrity issues.
I'm not aware of any third party modules/add-ons available that people are having difficulty with. (Also, just do add to what SteveX said, the jrSkeleton module is for _developers_ to use as a base - it's not an actual module for use on a Jamroom site).
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/03/09 17:42
what is see and this is the point blank truth, your not protecting anyone and you just opened this wide open to the public. It doesn't matter if you have even the creator look it over himself and say it's good. There should be a standard to essentially protect each other with a competent team to uphold that.
I've watched projects like Dolphin who do not do this and as they financially grew they opened mods to the public and lots and lots of people got ripped off. Fake mod makers were selling code that didn't work or the installation instructions were so unclear people could not even install them. Dolphin and other creators could not do anything about it.
I'm trying to address this because no one else is. I plan to keep buying mods if someone comes up with something cool and I want it for my site. I also want a better money and reputation system so coders stay reputable and I want my wallet safe from crooks.
I'm not interested in pulling threads to show you how serious this is already going. This isn't about pulling up bad beef.
Yes you need it and I would be willing to not just suggest it but design the whole approval process. It's not hard at all for me to at least get the core down and you guy's with more web savvy skills can address security issues and things about the code I wouldn't know anything about.
You are working across the planet. If someone get's screwed, in some places you can't do anything about it. Some places you legally can.
BE RESPONSIBLE AND LETS DO THIS.
I love Jamroom, been around since 2.0 the early days and I plan to stick around still for a long time or until no one wants to develop this script anymore.
What I see is a lot of smoothing over and people are very pissed and have been.
You can't keep squashing the disputes and you are.
We are all very smart boys and girls here. Let's show it
****
P.S. Kyle there will come a time Brian will not be able to look over everything.
And dude I don't know why you can't get this one.
"jrSkeleton module" - when I saw this and how it worked, I knew that if there is a script out there and it's coding was compatible, you can make anything. There will be a lot of people who will be offering mods for sale. Give it time. If you don't believe me take a look at how big the module development became with Dolphin.
Code
I'm not aware of any third party modules/add-ons available that people are having difficulty with.
- Take your nose out of the code and start reading these threads. I don't want to name names. So quit baiting me so I will.
****
Pa - paying a few bucks for someones time to ensure your coding is good to go and can be said and stamped by a pro trained to look it over, that it's good code?
Is that not worth keeping up your rep and credibility encase there are mods you DO want to sell? Beside there can always be a stipulation or warning that states; "This Mod Has Not Been Approved By The jr_Mod Team" - Use at Your Own Risk.
_________________ Labels are obsolete as we know them...
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 8792
Location: Ultrabubble
Posted: 09/03/09 18:20
You obviously have a passion for this idea.
You say that you are not willing to back it up with reference or argument, and you tell Pasher that it is worth him paying to have his code verified just in case he wants to sell something in the future.
You also say that you are willing to design the whole approval process.
One reasonably logical conclusion would be that you should now design the whole approval process and post it here for review, just in case you might want to say something in the future. It might provide a solution to your perceived problem, or at least be a big step on the way.
But this is very important: If you do want someone to take their nose out of the code and read some threads, please provide the links to the threads that you want people to read, as there are many threads on this forum, far too many to guess around, and without reference to what you are talking about or anything substantial, unfortunately this thread will just become a dead end.
So pleas post your process design ideas and links. I, for one, am interested.
_________________ Kulshi Mezian!
"Stranger from another planet, welcome to our hole. Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock and roll"
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/03/09 20:08
I really don't want to focus on the arguments or even start any. So NO links to past beef.
We need to stay focused on creating something like this and making sure it's as honest as possible.
To me with Jamroom and the potential of what it can really do in the right hands warrants that some sort of insurance need be in place to protect both the buyer and the seller. When you open a system up for Mod developers they will come, just to make mods and a quick sale and the past has proven that they come in large numbers.I've also seen other coders buy a mod and re-brand it and sell it as their own on separate sites. Dolphin has the highest problem with this. Mod Validation also protects the coder with a seal of authenticity.
There are other community scripts out there plagued with these issues as soon as they let out development code for people to make add ons and mods for their platform, script or system. phpBB handled it and over the years and many of us who would use that system would rely on it and Mod Validations proved to be trust worthy when integrating 3rd party code in their sites.
When people have no way of knowing how honest you are, then you need some sort of screening for honesty in order to keep clients trust and sales.
Is that worth it to Pasher? Sure it is, if you don't wish to sell your mod, it's not hard to avoid validation fees by being honest and stating your Mod is not approved because it's free. Use at your own risk. That's informing the client enough to take on the responsibility for themselves and also keeps people from complaining too hard if it doesn't work. After all it was free and they were warned about no guarantees.
If this is to be done right a new forum category would need to be made and it be all about 3rd party Mod validation.
A format and legend for creating installs would need to be made, which we can adopt from phpBB. I can do the work on that. I've worked with enough mods to pretty well have a grip on what is easy to understand and what isn't. I don't mind doing revisions as needed either. I made Jamroom my fave script and home and I don't plan on going anywhere.
I do not know all security issues and quirks with Jamroom yet but I'm working on it. I think someone like Merlin, Kyle or Brian if he has time should be in charge of seeing of things were coded correctly. I also think maybe bringing in a coder to just do approvals would be needed in the near future.
Fees do not need to be expensive. To handle the flow of submissions and for time spent and maybe even problems worked out should be compensated. The "Mod Validator" should be respected for this work to make sure you are a good product or manufacturer. A client sees that a mod was gone over thoroughly like that, they will be very apt to buy because of trust. So the fee is worth it and eventually paid back to the maker after so many sales have been made.
_________________ Labels are obsolete as we know them...
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Posts: 22009
Location: Southern California
Posted: 09/03/09 20:37
I know that there are enormous benefits for allowing modules in Jamroom (I was one of the biggest advocators for a Jamroom module API before it was even created, and beta tested it before it was released to the public). Brian and I can't implement all of the features that everyone wants. I know and understand the potential issues as well. What I am saying is that there already is a review process for Jamroom modules/add-ons that is in place to protect Jamroom users at a basic level. We have reviewed all of the modules and add-ons available in the Jamroom Marketplace to make sure that there are no security holes and that they comply with Jamroom's license and other licenses. As I said before, of those products currently available in the marketplace, I am not aware of any products that are broken or that can compromise your system - if you know of any that we currently have available in the Marketplace, _please_ let us know so that we can take a look at it. As I'm sure you are aware, customer service is one of our top priorities here (right with a quality product), and we accept nothing less than doing our best to protect our customers. In the end, we know that anything we place in the Marketplace _must_ be up to our standards - it's in both our customers' best interest and our best interest to ensure modules we make available on Jamroom.net are quality.
I am aware that some people have had issues with third parties, but our role can only be to ensure that the coding quality of any third party _products_ that we promote (by way of the Marketplace) are up to our standards. We cannot be involved in the support of those products (it would be akin to asking Microsoft to support every piece of software developed for Windows).
I understand your idea, and I agree that a review process is beneficial for everyone involved. What I am saying is: 1) There is already a process in place, and 2) As a result of that process, only third party products that we "approve" are listed in the Marketplace (i.e. we don't just place anyone's module in there). If there are any products currently available in the Marketplace that you are experiencing technical issues with (i.e. it has broken or compromised your system in someway), _please_ let us know so that we can communicate with the developer (if you do not wish to publicly post names, feel free to post links to threads where there are issues or send an e-mail to support.at.jamroom.net). Things like third party support issues, bugs, implementation, etc., however, are _not_ our responsibility, and will need to be handled directly with the third party.
Like I said, I'm a huge advocate for third party modules, and love the idea of getting to a point where there are too many modules for us to review by ourselves, but that is not currently the case. If there are any modules that have currently "slipped through the cracks" of the current review process, please let us know so that we can refine it. If someone is saying that their module has our "stamp of approval" and it does not, then please let us know so that can take appropriate action.
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/03/09 21:30
Your system is flawed and I am going to send you a pm of what you request to prove why. Seems it's the only way perhaps maybe you will see this as being much more sensible than the system you have now. Forgive me but yeah I have money invested, and I knew the danger of spending my money on a person who I knew tech support blew with.
What I realized after seeing the persons install instructions was that this could all be avoided. To address this one problem I knew then that a system to handle several issues of trust with mods for sale needed to be detailed.
This my opinion but I really feel you guys are too busy to adequately deal with this. Or are out right just letting it go thinking you can't do anything about it.
Either way you if you show you condone this persons business practices with your system then soon that makes us questions you. To argue this with what I'm bringing up seems pointless and you should be seriously thinking C.Y.A. before that becomes an issue and reason you loose sales. I've talked to several people in this forum through PM who are feeling the same way but feel trapped saying what can you do? I already have money involved also, so I guess I just have to deal?
That's crap and I'll say it. I'm even volunteering to oversee the project to make sure all interest are appreciated here and not just yours and the 3rd party. What you have approved and promote on your site 3rd party wise has people really pissed so how can you say it's good to go?
_________________ Labels are obsolete as we know them...
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/03/09 21:56
I sent you an email with lots nifty proof and details. FYI members can't PM you because your staff and that feature is turned off. I hope this works out guys. I've said all I need to. P.M. me if you guys want me to build this for everyone.
_________________ Labels are obsolete as we know them...
Joined: 17 Apr 2005
Posts: 478
Location: North America
Posted: 09/04/09 01:36
Edge666:
I sent you an email with lots nifty proof and details. FYI members can't PM you because your staff and that feature is turned off. I hope this works out guys. I've said all I need to. P.M. me if you guys want me to build this for everyone.
Who are you....
_________________ Play The Melody, don't over-arrange, don't make life difficult, play it the simplest way possible.
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/04/09 03:30
Someone sticking up for what's right with a viable solution to help everyone. I haven't spent my time in these forums for years because I dropped the Jamroom site most all through the 3.0 series. I felt it was always a good platform but I couldn't afford it for a while. I also helped Brian in the early developments of the one pager theme that helped take us out of the original 4 page theme (1.0 and 2.0) for members and artist. Back when several themes were for sale I also helped design the Felony theme with Dan from http://www.neworleansbands.net/ during 2.0
Just because I don't spend my time making post here doesn't mean I haven't been around long enough to have a love for this script and to understand and know what I am talking about.
I also didn't think we had a need for unbiased validation of mods till the api was created.
Does anyone care to talk more about a solution to a real problem here?
Or is everyone just concerned about my biographical history and what names I'm suppose to point at to stir up more drama?
_________________ Labels are obsolete as we know them...
well I for one understand that there could be a potential issue at some point with the api being that Skeleton Module is availible to public ANY-ONE can download it and the demo and churn out half a** mods and sell them any where.
sugestion: maybe only paid members an those who are currently creating mods and are aprt of the community be able to download, and outsiders need to purchase a certificate as mentioned by Edge666 in oder to obtain Skeleton Module and permission to sell on sites other than jamroom.
Now with that been said.
I also understand that new mods and add-ons are looked at before they are put in the market-place which leads me to belive that if for some reason Bigguy or the mod team can't look somthing over then it won't be placed there until it is, or shouldn't be. And if there is an issue maybe a complaint system should be in order, Too many CREDITABLE complaints goods are removed from market-place.
With that been said.
Quote:
something just doesn't make any sense at all of why it should even work
Consumers have a responsiblity to know and understand what they are buying. I can only speak for myself when I say I won't buy anything if I don't understand what it is, what it does, or feel some kinda way about who I'm buying it from, especialy untangible goods. And just because it's certified does not mean that the end user is capable of getting it to work.
In Edge666's defense I agree that
Quote:
clear instructions and full functionality
should be manditory if you have goods for SALE on THIS site, and if you buy exclusively from a third party site, then as with any thing else you buy at your own risk and the settlement of issues becomes your own.
in closing:
"IF YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND IT DON'T BUY IT"
"ASK QUESTIONS"
"FIND A WORKING DEMO IF AVIALIBLE"
"IF YOU FIND IT FOR SALE ON A OTHER SITE THAN JAMROOM.NET SITE, SEE IF ANYONE HERE KNOWS ABOUT IT"
problem solved.
no need to make a mountain of a mole hill
Last edited by geewiz on 09/04/09 10:49; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/04/09 07:08
Now yer talking
I think that instructions should run a standard format to be followed by all who make mods. phpBB has no problem keeping this a standard and it's worked well for at least 10 years that I can account for.
Theirs is pretty advanced now but I think we can adopt some things from them, to better explain specifically where files are located and how to alter them.
You can suggest about which line you will find code to be altered, replaced or added to.
Example directory map: public_html/Jamroom/skins/jr_header.tpl
[COPY]
whatever code
[FIND] Line 129
[AFTER PASTE]
whatever code
[REPLACE]
whatever code
[BEFORE PASTE]
whatever code
I'm sure we will have to develop some sort of a language here, but I'm sure everyone get's the point.
