Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 8792
Location: Ultrabubble
Posted: 09/04/09 08:54
geewiz:
well I for one understand that there could be a potential issue at some point with the api being that Skeleton Module is availible to public ANY-ONE can download it and the demo and churn out half a** mods and sell them any where.
I think you are overestimating what the skeleton module is, there is no working code in it and it would take quite a lot of code work to make it do anything useful.
Edge666:
Theirs is pretty advanced now but I think we can adopt some things from them, to better explain specifically where files are located and how to alter them.
I don't think the two are comparable, phpBB has a very poor system - a mod basically rewrites the core files. Fortunately for us Brian has written a very good module system which will let you do pretty much anything without touching a single core file. And the documentation here is excellent.
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 8792
Location: Ultrabubble
Posted: 09/04/09 08:58
I'd like to make a suggestion. Why not test out the existing module creation / validation / distribution system by creating a module, sending it to Brian to look over, then uploading it to the marketplace to see what the Jamroom community makes of it?
A little real world experience of the existing process will be very helpful if you are thinking of ways to alter it. And perhaps the added perspective that you might gain from presenting something on the Marketplace will save you some possibly unnecessary worrying.
_________________ Kulshi Mezian!
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/04/09 09:51
SteveX:
I don't think the two are comparable, phpBB has a very poor system - a mod basically rewrites the core files. Fortunately for us Brian has written a very good module system which will let you do pretty much anything without touching a single core file. And the documentation here is excellent.
The point is not to compare see which is superior or how does or doesn't work.
The point is that simple install instructions and the symbols and directory maps should be one standard language which we all should abide by. Something like that would eventually grow as coding issues may require a new way to describe how to do things. So we would need probably a forum sections devoted to it so people can discuss the evolution of it. The rules would have to evolve. Just like phpBB did with theirs.
My question for you guy's is why are you trying so hard to pick it apart and shoot it down?
I feel like your trying to get me to publicly point fingers to prove to you that your system is not working and people are getting really irritated.
...and the point to that is?
I'm really not trying to be a smart *** but seriously why not develop something further to protect everyone's time and money invested? Especially when it's needed.
I have something right now I purchased on my pc for a good chunk of money made for Jamroom - praised by all of you and till I can decipher it and become a total pro at knowing every nuance of Jamroom, I can't install it and it's worthless. Why? Not because it's inferior tech quite the opposite actually. The problem is the instructions on how to install it on my site completely blow and it's agreed upon by everyone who buys it!
Now argue with me again and tell me your system works. It doesn't, we need something better and hence I'm not willing to give up on this.
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 37583
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 09/04/09 10:13
First off let me say thanks for all the feedback - a topic like this is great to get a discussion going.
Hopefully my response here will help clarify several points about Jamroom modules and the Marketplace.
The Jamroom "Skeleton" module is simply a module "blueprint" - it contains no logic, and won't run - it cannot do anything on its own, so cannot be a "threat" to your system or Jamroom. It is simply used as a "kickoff" by a developer when developing a new module, as it saves them time on the naming of files and directory conventions.
Modules that are in the Jamroom Marketplace have been reviewed by me, and while they may have bugs, should not have any security issues. If you find that a Jamroom module presents a security issue, please contact me ASAP at support@jamroom.net
Currently there is a very small amount of modules available, and the "workload" in reviewing these is small, so at this time the current review process is sufficient.
There is no need for a phpBB type "install guide", since you never have to modify core files when using a Jamroom module, so the comparison cannot be made. However, I'm certain there is always room for improvement in any documentation that comes with any module.
I think we're open to the idea of having some type of "official" stamp of approval on a module, and it would like be a paid review process, but I certainly don't want to discourage developers from developing Jamroom modules by charging them for something they plan on giving away for free, so guidelines would need to be created, etc. Like my previous point about current module volume though, I don't know if this is needed or warranted yet.
With that being said, I want to make it clear that we're dealing with a double edge sword - Any process that puts in to place "hoops" that need to be jumped through to "protect" Jamroom uses, is only going to discourage 3rd party developers from developing modules.
I would recommend that instead of looking at the entire process or delivery method as being the problem, let's focus on correcting problems we know exist. For example, Edge666 - you mention that you've had a problem with a module we have recommended here. It is important that you let the developer know in their support forum (located here in our forums) what the issues are - that way it is brought into the open and can be discussed. I'm not currently aware of any extraordinary issues with a module that would make it "useless" for you - and I do read every single post in these forums. The current module issues that I am aware of revolve around customization and feature requests - bugs and installation issues are almost always addressed immediately.
I also want to make sure it is clear that there is nothing we can do about transactions between 3rd parties and another user that happen OUTSIDE of Jamroom.net - we simply cannot police every third party transaction that occurs. If you have been working and communicating with a 3rd party developer offline (i.e. via email or PM), then there's little we can do to help you with any issues if they are not brought to our attention. So far I have not seen any emails from you or posts that are indicating any issues with installing any modules (I did a search on your posts before posting here).
In order to be as fair as possible with out Jamroom developers, please post any installation issues you have - there are no worries about "calling someone out" for the issue - if a developer chooses to post their module publicly, then any feedback (both positive and negative) can be public as well. If the developer does not like it, then they can remove their products from our Marketplace.
Hopefully this helps - let me know if that makes sense, clarifies anything, or if you feel I am overlooking something.
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 8792
Location: Ultrabubble
Posted: 09/04/09 10:14
I don't think anyone is getting irritated are they?
Edge666:
The point is that simple install instructions and the symbols and directory maps should be one standard language which we all should abide by.
We already have this for modules (if they have been built using the skeleton file and directory structure):
Unzip and upload to the Jamroom root directory, then enter the admin control panel (so that the integrity check will run). Your module is now installed.
Edge666:
P.S. Steve your suggestion is an awesome idea.
Yes, it seems like a sensible suggestion. I look forward to seeing your results.
_________________ Kulshi Mezian!
"Stranger from another planet, welcome to our hole. Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock and roll"
I don't anyone take my last post the wrong way, since for the most part I feel JR has already taking care of this issue, as mentioned above for instance
So in reality, "That I can see" there may be only a few stones left unturned.
maybe
1. a sticky in developers forum stating precise criteria for mods being sold on JR.net
(which may already be in place somwhere)
2.maybe a private forum or mode of contact where members who have bought 3rd party goods FROM THIS SITE may make a formal complaint if there is a valid issue, as long goods purchased came specificly from the market-place, and there has been clear unresovled dialog between the two parties.
3.if the predetermind number of disputes have been deemed vaild over a predetermind time frame
first warning by pm, second warning in public forum, third waring product removal.
but honestly I can't remember any issuse that serious to warrant that type of government over 3rd party mods and services.
I do however vaugely remeber a stink or two about 3rd party jr products purchased from other sites in which case would not even apply here though I could be wrong, the most recent one that comes yo mind is
("And no I don't want this post to stir any issuses, but just tring help clearify the types of problems that COULD arise per Edge6's initial post, as I personaly take no sides in the issue and this really does not effect me").
http://www.jamroom.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=31088
don't know the out come but, and agin don't think it was that serious as I belive that the poster said somthing to the effect of:
Quote:
Honestly its nothing worth bashing him about. he has great products
but in the same breath those who sell jr goods that are members of this community if nothing else in respect to Bigguy should try to maintain good customer relations as he does.
and in Biguy's defense I don't for a minute belive that he would even consider maintaining an affiliation with those who consistantly have customer relation issues or sold junk mods and or services here on this site, and trust that if it was to become a growing problem then further action would be taking to govern 3rd party mods and services on this site in order to protect the integrity of the JR brand.
But at the end of the day it is still the consumer's responsiblity to educate themselves when it comes to buying a product
KUDO's Bigguy for your product and customer service "satistfied coustomer"
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/04/09 11:25
I think what you guy's are saying I agree with and understand. Brian thanks your were perfectly clear and same for Steve and Geewiz.
In the beginning I was mentioning both mods and add-ons (cosmetic changes and different players like Wimpy and even N8's). Somewhere I guess being tired I changed to just mods.
If the mods has that language and standard install language for instructions for all that is great. I think add-ons as well should under go the same.
Taking short cuts to explain things doesn't help anyone and if your trying to irritate your clients so they hire you to install, well even that won't last long before people have had enough. If your assuming your clients know Jamroom well enough to not have to explain things thoroughly? Well we know what ASSUME turns into lol
I'm just saying hey yeah you may not be able to police the net, but what's offered through the "Market Place", should be under the same language and format (including how to install) to avoid unnecessary problems and minimize complaints. It's just common sense and respect, plus you spend more time progressing in development than on handling problems. Forums for reference can only do so much but is a great help.
P.S. Brian I'll post and ask for help when I see the developer taking the time out to explain where a file specifically is, instead of just replying with; "Just post it where you want it". I ask for specifics that's what I want, not a answer like that.
This is something that should be clear in the install file and install instructions should be compatible with or written for all themes and skins available in the Market Place and up to date with the latest version of Jamroom.
Joined: 23 Mar 2007
Posts: 251
Location: Chicago, IL
Posted: 09/28/09 09:55
First off Thanks for all the attention brought to this discussion.
I get the point that edge666 is making and agree that there should be a process that mod and add on go through prior to being released. Don't get me wrong I trust Brian and Kyle to make good decision about what is and should be available via JR but I also think that there should be a team of people/JR owners who make the decision on what should be made available. The team should consist of coders and users. The coders can verify the working code and the users can verify that instruction and ease of install.
If you look PHPNuke, XOOPS, OScommerce, ZenCart, and so many others such open source programs they all have hundreds of mods and add-ons most work but many lack clear instruction on how to install. This is where the user is be valuable.
Is there a forum for sharing ideas on mods or a place where we can find others to work with us on a project?
Thanks for all the great conversation on this subject.
Tom
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Yeah i am game for being one of the "users testers" i am not much of a coder (well in that aspect).
2tunes:
First off Thanks for all the attention brought to this discussion.
I get the point that edge666 is making and agree that there should be a process that mod and add on go through prior to being released. Don't get me wrong I trust Brian and Kyle to make good decision about what is and should be available via JR but I also think that there should be a team of people/JR owners who make the decision on what should be made available. The team should consist of coders and users. The coders can verify the working code and the users can verify that instruction and ease of install.
If you look PHPNuke, XOOPS, OScommerce, ZenCart, and so many others such open source programs they all have hundreds of mods and add-ons most work but many lack clear instruction on how to install. This is where the user is be valuable.
Is there a forum for sharing ideas on mods or a place where we can find others to work with us on a project?
Thanks for all the great conversation on this subject.
Joined: 05 Jun 2006
Posts: 1559
Location: Rochester Pa
Posted: 09/28/09 12:35
Well testers I guess would have free mods is probably the reason everyone wants to test....but not sure if im puttng out or not but imtowards the completion of Classified Ads, Support Tickets, and a Task Manager a coulple of small things to fix/add to them and somethig i am researching for the tickets nothing major here as far as mods go just a few small no brainer mods for someone experienced (not me lol)
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Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/28/09 15:46
Hold Your shorts I'm working on mine and I was in process of moving lol.
I'm sure we are going to start seeing quite a few new mods over the next 6 months or so. I know the mod skeleton is really clear but still it's a process and takes time. This is going to be my first time ever making anything since working on the one pager years ago.
What about having a mod submit system like sourceforge or whatever? I can see where it could come in handy working with testers and to help in each mods development. I'm really not sure how that would work as some mods are going to be for sale and other more like open source where others would be encouraged to help them develop.
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Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 8792
Location: Ultrabubble
Posted: 09/28/09 17:53
So am I to understand that the real reason for this thread is to avoid the unavoidable nightmare of a capitalist marketplace trial by fire within an 'open' community musicians jamming type of environment?
If so, well spotted! It can be so very annoying and also quite offensive.
Best of luck with completing the modules. When you release them you will find that there are (thankfully relatively few) people who you will just need to politely ignore. I have a few good links to illustrate this, but I have posted them before so I won't bother to post them here again, hilarious though, they certainly are.
_________________ Kulshi Mezian!
"Stranger from another planet, welcome to our hole. Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock and roll"
Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 265
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posted: 09/28/09 20:06
Naw really I figured having a certification system for complete mods and mods in development would be cool and helpful.
One you can see and watch like Jamroom the development so you can decide if you want to try adding the mod to your site. Some mods, I wait and watch like the Battle Mod to see how its going to turn out.
I think something like sourceforge would be cool in the manor that if you wanted to do a group effort on a mod or pick up development on a mod later maybe say after someone decides they don't want to work on it anymore. That would help too. I've seen many old projects for other scripts resurrected and carried on by other coders and they turned out to be twice as useful.
I think something where we could all set up a tracker for our mods might be a good way of validating both free mods and those for sale.
I would trust them way more for sure before deciding implement them on my site.
My two cents, been a long weekend and I'm still tired lol.
"satistfied coustomer"
