Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 37583
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 08/24/13 09:27
Ken Rich:
Like it or not, we are in competition with i-tunes, CD Baby's mega distribution pack, ReverbNation, and every other professionally run music site. We are fighting them for sales in an environment where music doesn't sell well, and most owners will simply not make $20 in profit a month to pay for their Foxycart, or ever recoup their investment in Jamroom software.
This is where you and I agree to disagree. Do you think all those sites you listed are worried about spending $20 per month on their transaction processing? You are not competing with those sites. Those sites are being run as true business ventures, with the expectation that they are going to bring the business owners a significant source of revenue. The business owners have likely invested many hundreds of thousands (or millions) of dollars into their businesses. Each of those companies has a team of developers at their disposal that they can task to create anything they want.
So by far the majority of Jamroom sites are hobby sites (and again there is nothing wrong with that) and would be much better served by asking their customers to pitch in to help run their site. If you don't want to directly ask your users for donations, and really want to try to build your site up as a real business, then set aside $X,XXX amount of dollars and give it a real run for your money. Real businesses don't go "out of business" over $20. Hobbies do. Please don't take that wrong either - I've built and run several businesses in my life - some I've lost a lot of money on, some I have made a ton of money on. This is just my opinion and I know not everyone is going to agree with it, but I do believe I have a very realistic outlook on what it takes to run a successful business.
Also - I think it is important to know that this is the early days of JR5. It's only been out for a month, and there is obviously a lot of passionate people on both sides of this specific issue. I'm confident that in time we will have solutions that meet everyone's needs. JR4 wasn't built in 30 days, and neither will JR5. We're working really hard to make sure JR5 is an awesome platform for the long haul.
SteveX , you are a developer and is thinking like a developer but you're missing the point that will lead to problems with JR5 by not listening to all the JR4 clients who don't like foxycart monthly fees . Lets do a Jamroom vote and see how many JR4 users want to pay foxycart $20 a month =$240 a year cost for "just in case and the convenience"of having foxycart ,when almost every one DON'T WANT FOXYCART and thinks their JR4 investment went up in smoke,and only a few people like you who is pushing foxycart VS the majority of us
I think your looking at the glass half empty instead of it being half full.
JR5 is here. Its foundation is really a great improvement and its core holds a brighter future then JR4!
an old saying "If you build it, They will come"
Im certain more developers will be here building modules soon as the documentation is available.
You seem to be posting rants at the Jamroom team like its going to motivate them to run out and make a PayPal stand alone intergration overnight.
(To help... I have invested the past 4 weeks almost every waking hour on a demo site programming and learning what I need to know about this system to create a solution. And im still learning it.. Im coming from a different programming environment and had to pick up on a lot of different areas.)
Even though I agree a stand alone Paypal intergration is something they need I don't believe your seeing how wonderful this product is and what will be developed on it just yet.
Thus your not seeing whats in front of you a "half full" glass. (How Great the Foundation is to build on)
You can post until your fingers go knumb about how much they need it, but its obviously up to people like me and other independent developers to step in and create this functionality to add it as a module.
We will be adding functionality on top of their great software but this wont happen overnight.
The point im making here is stop ranting about how they piss you off for not catering to your needs and jumping to develop for you, and get more involved in a solution geared twards your liking. They don't owe you Paypal as a stand alone option. And if you really feel you want it over the options they have already given you, Provide one by hiring a developer or maby donate to SteveX or one of the developers currently working on solutions to bring it to the table... Theres many ways you could be a part of the solution and make the community better!
Ranting to their team over and over agian about your feelings at this point has been heard and its senselessly going to go nowhere. They have addressed the issue multiple times and it just brings negative feelings to the board.
If you need a solution "Right Now" Then Keep your investment with JR4 Alive and wait for JR5 to have more options built to your fancy.
Lets try and be more positive here and supportive by working on solutions instead of so much negativity.
Ken Rich:
Like it or not, we are in competition with i-tunes, CD Baby's mega distribution pack, ReverbNation, and every other professionally run music site. We are fighting them for sales in an environment where music doesn't sell well, and most owners will simply not make $20 in profit a month to pay for their Foxycart, or ever recoup their investment in Jamroom software.
I agree with you here Ken. Its not that Jamroom sites are considered on the level of I-tunes, Reverbnation, Bandcamp, ect... But you might be able to grow to a large scale. JR site owners have to entice people to signup to their site against these giants. In all respects being smaller and having less members you have to offer something better then these giants provide. And that dosent mean your JR site will eliminate I-tunes. Im not saying that. Im saying if they are paying 75 cents each song you have to pay 80 cents each song. You are absolutely right you have to offer more and better. I remember when my First JR sight just broke even with hosting costs and started to make a profit. It took a lot of trial and error but the way I achieved success with it was offering better services then anyone else. We had to incorporate all the same functionality and services everyone else does and do it better.
We were a small site but were growing and @ .10 cents profit on every sale it was hard to reach profit but it was working! Paypal got .10cents and we got .10 cents. If I apply that same formula to JR5 and add FoxyCart I have to sell an additional 200 songs (on top of my required 300 to cover hosting) each month to again break even which is why I cant use their service. Also I wouldent really consider constantly selling 75 songs a week totally just a hobby site eather. Its small yes, but the point is it was growing and you have to start small to grow big here. I don't think I would choose FoxyCart even if I sold 125 songs a week. I would be happy to pay them $20 a month if they offered something like a Print on Demand services for my members cd's but not for a shopping cart service fee.
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Posts: 37583
Location: Seattle, WA
Posted: 08/25/13 09:43
izasha:
Notice: JR5 will NOT BE AWESOME without Paypal.
You already beat this up as izhmel - please, let's not do this all over again as izasha. I'm certain PayPal support will be coming along in the future, and at that time you can happily say "JR5 is awesome".
JR5 is AWESOME! We waited this long, speaking for us, we'll wait a bit more for the Antidote to the virus. Even JR4 is a great platform, otherwise we would not have bought it. At the end of the day, we ought to stop going on about it - as I have - and wait for that 'other choice'. It's a wonderful feeling to have choices rather than 'this way or no way'.
My last 3 words & I'm out-ta here: JR5 is AWESOME!
I have to interject here as I have been following this debate for awhile ( Through a few threads ).
We are a HOBBY site but we derived from a site with over 30,000 users and over a million posts ( Still alive BTW )
If you want all the bells and whistles of JR4 you should not have moved to JR5 this early.
All new software NEEDS other ideas and developers to make softwares add ons great.
The FoxyCart issue never bothered me as we provide free download etc authorised by the artists.
I really don't see why ish whatever keeps jumping up and down .
JR5 IMO works great and will always work great until JR6 ( Like 2,3,4 etc )
If you are that impatient PLEASE stop making JR5 developers out as capitalists as they are providing high quality software which if you had to build for the cost of what they are providing it for ..... Yeah it wouldn't happen.
So stop trying to recruit others to your cause as it's starting to get childish and is bordering on ridiculous.
You are lucky they even incorporated foxycart. They could have said ......NO PAYMENT GATEWAYS.
So if the cost of Foxy upsets you , Revert back to JR4 until there is another option.
I have been in this ( Hobby ) Game for over 13 years now and this guy would have to be the most pathetic case of whinging over low cost software that I have ever seen.
My rant over and I can see that there are big things instore which I am really looking forward to and hats off to the Jamroom team.
If you have to whine about a payment system when you have been provided with almost every other option you need......Well, You have no idea ( thought of something else to say then but refrained )
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 470
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted: 10/28/13 18:22
I really do regret upgrading to JR5 so early, my site doesn't generate a lot of sales but it was a nice feature to have for the artists that took advantage of it, I have disabled foxycart and the merchandise store, it's only $20 a Month but I can't afford that extra $20, it was must simpler on JR4 and it worked just fine, oh well .
_________________ Eddy
After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.
Joined: 30 Aug 2005
Posts: 8792
Location: Ultrabubble
Posted: 10/28/13 18:37
ouviste:
I really do regret upgrading to JR5 so early, my site doesn't generate a lot of sales but it was a nice feature to have for the artists that took advantage of it, I have disabled foxycart and the merchandise store, it's only $20 a Month but I can't afford that extra $20, it was must simpler on JR4 and it worked just fine, oh well .
Bad move then. Reverting to a backup is probably going to be difficult (not impossible, but if a loss of revenue isn't a factor you probably don't want to do/pay for it).
If the artists who were taking advantage of it are profiting, hit them for the difference (donations or 50 cents a month, whatever the figure).
Otherwise, I guess you just need to concentrate on letting your artists know that you are building towards a viable business model and that they will benefit in the long term from their current < 50 cents a month loss in revenue. They also will understand where you are coming from, which is a valuable bonus towards a sustainable community.
_________________ Kulshi Mezian!
"Stranger from another planet, welcome to our hole. Just strap on your guitar and we'll play some rock and roll"
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 470
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted: 10/28/13 18:42
Don't get me wrong, I'm not going back now, it's to late, but wish we had an option of which to use, foxycart or same as JR4, to late now, will wait it out and see what happens.
_________________ Eddy
After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.
Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 470
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posted: 10/28/13 20:09
Well, I have to admit that for the most part I am happy with JR5, but there are a couple of things that I'm also really disappointed about, like the lack of contact options for artists and members, and the whole foxycart thing, I have been reading the threads here and although I understand where Brian is coming from, one thing that should've been kept in mind and was probably overlooked, is the fact that the majority of Jamroom owners (like me) run our sites as a hobby, not a business, and so a more cost effective cart would have been more ideal, I would've been happy with a JR4 store upgrade, keeping it simple and giving us more or less the same options, and as far as having to write/create all the gateways, well, how about starting with the most common at first, and than create on a demand basis, as of right now I'm not using foxycart / store on my site any more, I'm really disappointed, but it is what it is.
_________________ Eddy
After silence, that which comes nearest to expressing the inexpressible is music.
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